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Heroes and Villains Further Discussion – 4X12 – 262

Heroes and Villains - Rumbelle goodbye

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Main Show – Heroes and Villains

We will be discussing the Once Upon a Time episode, Heroes and Villains further and including listener feedback.

Episode Number: 262

Show notes can be found at:


We will play part 2 of the VM message from Abby Ross who played Young Emma


Ernie Hudson has been cast as King Triton

Joanna Garcia Swisher will return as Ariel per http://variety.com/2014/tv/news/once-upon-a-time-joanna-garcia-swisher-ariel-return-1201380663/

Eion Bailey will return as August W. Booth/Pinocchio per http://tvline.com/2014/12/18/once-upon-a-time-season-4-eion-bailey-returns-august-spoilers/

Email points:

From Aleana

Yay! a potrait of Ingrid, Gerta and Helga is being put up in Arendelle Castle.


From Chris Tipton

Another episode full of epic. Unlike alot of people i really loved this half season and this was a great end. My top 5
5) Frozen gang returns to Arandelle
This was a sad moment for me. Elizabeth Lail as Anna is one of my all time favorite characters on this show and she will be sorely missed. Im so happy she had a hand in saving everyone. Anna looked absolutely glorious in her wedding gown, and i loved our one last frozen reference… CHOCOLATE!!
4) The Queens of Darkness
Can Cruella turn herself into a dalmatian on command? Maybe this is her superpower. I love Maleficents new look. She finally looks legit, i thought she looked dumb in season one. Cruella also is spot on. She already is terrifying. Those eyebrows haha. I dont care for Ursula so far but hopefully she’ll grow on me. My pet theory is Lilly is Cruella De Vil because Lilith is a demon in many stories and De vil.. Devil so theres that. One question, Rumple needs to make 2 more stops? Maleficent is a wraith beneath the clock tower… How does he think he can find her?
3)Regina and Robin/Marian
Im so proud of Regina making the right decision. It was so heart breaking at the town line, second most heart wrenching part of the show. Alot of people predicted this and it came to fruition. I felt how we got there was kind of silly and contrived but alas it is once upon a time. Also, how in the blue heck is Robin anymore qualified for dealing with the regular world than Marian? I still am pretty sure we haven’t seen the last of Robin so there’s hope yet for Regina #RIPOUTLAWQUEEN
2) The Sorcerer is the author!! This was my theory all season and i suppose i was correct it seems. Very cool seeing that room. Did Henry just go around pulling on lights till he found a secret room?
Henry, please dont call Belle Grandma ever again!! Too much awkward.
1)Rumples Story / End of Rumbelle
Another Magical plot device, but it was nice to get another Camelot reference, and it showed Belle Rumples true self so i suppose it was useful! So epic finding out the house was the sorcerer’s, which i also had predicted all along. Cool to see the walking broom again and hear the amazing sorcerer’s apprentice theme. Really Hook needs to get a bruise checked? Real subtle Rumple!! The scene in the clock tower turned observatory was really cool. Awesome effects on the stars. So glad Rumple didn’t get to kill Hook. So now for Rumple and Belle at the town line. For so long I just wanted Belle to find Rumple out, but now im not so sure. This scene was almost too much to take. It was so amazing but so soul crushing at the same time, easily the most devastating scene ive ever watched on television. I cant even believe they went through with it. Im excited to see the direction they’re going though. We all know Rumple will return return to Storybrooke somehow. #RIPRUMBELLE (although they are still legally maried) 2 ships dead in one episode!

Honerable mention goes to Regina and Rumples talk. Haven’t seen this in a long time. No surprise Rumple was on to Henry, so I suppose Henrys days as the apprentice are over.

Another epic episode. This is going to be a long 10 weeks!! 9.7/10 cannibalistic fishes


From Angela

Jeff and Collen Roney

Big Love to you guys I enjoy listening to your podcast.

this episode pulled all the heart strings.

Here are some the things I noticed:

Belle said that she tried to change to please Rumple and fit into his life. She came to the hard and painful realization that this was not working or healthy. Belle knew Rumple was up to no good but chose to overlook the signs. I think people have the tendency to overlook unhealthy habits and faults when they are in love.

Lucky for Hook she came to her senses and really laid down the law to Rumple.

I have always considered Rumple a villian. He corrupts the innocent and the unaware with the art of the deal that is to his benefit. His artifacts that he peddles can be dangerous. He still hands them out for an I. O. U. Which leads people to a bad end.

Ask Regina-No deals with Rumple!!!

Rumple parks it in regina’s car and gives her his goodbye speech. At this point, she realizes Rumple is still a Tool. Regina gives him her patented side eye look. Their relationship is completely strange. Rumple has an affection for Regina that has yet to be explained. When regina first summoned Rumple, a comment was made that he meet her as a wee tiny baby. It makes me think Rumple choose regina to get back at Cora. I would love to see that fleshed out with Rose McGowan and or Barbara Hershey return OUAT.

Regina has her brave face on for Robin. At the end of the day she chooses to save Marion. Regina usually is by herself crying her heart out ie seasons 1-3. This time she has a shoulder to lean on “Emma”. It funny to see this relationship develop from two women trying kill each other to budding friendship.

I believe Robin will be back for his Regina. He can not stay away. I can’t wait for what is in store for Outlaw Queen 1 March.

Stay awesome guys!!!!!



From Diane

Dear Jeff and Colleen,

In regards to last nights show I think there may be more reasons that the gauntlet led Belle to the dagger and not her.

Rumple said the gauntlet lead to the persons weakness and then added that was “usually” the thing they loved the most. That last is an assumption/belief/prejudice of Rumples. The only fact is the gauntlet leads to the persons weakness…which Belle clearly is not.

Twice in the past Rumple has referred to Belle as his strength. First was when he told Ariel to tell Belle she would find what she needed by the “strength of our love”. The second time was before he sacrificed himself and said “And I love you Belle, you made me stronger.”

Whether he loves his power or her more is something up for debate and remains to be seen, but whatever the case it doesn’t change the likelihood that the gauntlet did not lead to her because she was his strength not his weakness.

This also harkens back to exploring whether love was weakness (as per Cora) or strength (as per Emma) and on this matter they have usually shown the villains got this one wrong, it’s strength. So I think Rumple at the time equated love with weakness but that is an incorrect assumption.

Belle has a million things to be upset about, but I think the gauntlet not leading to her signified something good. Our loves should be our strengths not our weakness.

Thanks for listening, Diane

Sent from my iPhone


From Brad

Seasonings greetings Jeff and Colleen, if you get a scent of desperation and gin in the air, hide the Reindog Lady just in case. Now onto the things I learned this week on the episode, Heroes and Villains.

1). Broomsticks can crack their

2). One doesn’t simply just ‘walk’ to
another realm.

3). Don’t underestimate a blissfully
ignorant wife.

4). When traveling with a woman,
one suitcase is never enough.

5). When the cat is away, the mice
don’t dust.

6). Even the Dark One needs clean

7.) Storybrooke has an open car
door policy.

8). It’s really difficult to say goodbye
when your boyfriends annoying
wife is freezing to death.

9). Emma would not make a good
heart surgeon.

10). The word “never” actually
means “just for the next couple
of episodes” in Storybrooke.


I believe Cruella may posses a coat
with magic properties just like Ruby. The only difference is, Ruby’s cloak turned her back into a human but Cruella’s would turn her into an animal, such as a Dalmatian. This would be a way to give her magic while still staying true to her character.

That’s it for now.

See you in the Spring!

– Brad


From Maii

Hey guys, sorry for my messes over the past wks I’ve been all over the place (’tis the season right?) Also my computer is in the shop again so it’s harder for me to have everything in the same place. I’m mess, adorable but a mess all the same..

I’m not gonna lie I was severly underwhelmed by the episode, most of the people I’ve talked to ended the episode the same way “That’s it?” It felt like a regular episode not a finale. Yes they wrapped things up but like I said in our own podcast it’s like they had a lot of open wounds and instead of stitching them up nicely they just put band-aids on them and called it a day.

The entire episode was completely choppy and made no sense, also Emma Swan was completely out of character. It went from point A to point C then to F then back to B and honestly why didn’t they just make this one two hours instead of Smash the Mirror? I didn’t hate the episode I was just underwhelmed and I’m very critical of the things I love.

First the bad:

Ingrid’s Spells not getting undone: This makes no sense considering all of Zelena’s spells were undone completely when she died so this just feels like a cop-out. You guys know by now that I was not okay with the way OQ was handled but this just seemed like a cop out to give them more drama. (Although they didn’t really have drama Robin waited like one ep to cheat on his wife)

Queens of Darkness: Okay I loved the Queens of Darkness don’t get me wrong. They were fantastic and Cruella is totally my new fav. The fact that they introduced them in the middle of the episode kind of stole away from the “shock” of the end (by the way was that supposed to be the huge cliffhanger? Because they completely oversold it, everyone and their mothers knew the trio was coming it wasn’t a shock) They should have waited to introduce them in the final scene.

Emma Swan: I am severly pissed as both a CS fan and a fan of both Emma AND Killian that we got no real payoff. It was a great storyline that was a great ride but blew the landing. If you’re going give us a storyline as heartwrenching as the heart storyline you have to give us a good ending.

We didn’t see how they figured it out (and that could have been easily done, you just needed to pan to Emma after Anna told them about Rumple and have her say one word “Killian”. That was all. We would have been happy instead we didn’t get anything.

You didn’t give us anything, we got a 5 second scene where she just pushed the heart in, kissed him and went to have shots with Regina? No that’s not Emma Swan. That’s not the Emma Swan that cried just seeing him in the sheriff’s office before the curse, crying because she didn’t want him hurt. This isn’t the Emma Swan that pushed him away because “I can’t loose you too.”

And here she almost lost him and she got no reaction. Even A/E admitted it was because they had no time (come on I am the biggest fan of the frozen stuff but we didn’t need that last scene and we DID NOT need that operation mongoose scene that could have easily fit into 4B)

About Operation Mongoose it makes no sense that Emma would be completely okay with it?

People are gonna tell you who you are your whole life. You just gotta punch back and say, “No, this is who I am”. You want people to look at you differently? Make them. You want to change things, you’re gonna have to go out there and change them yourself, because there are no fairy godmothers in this world.

That is from Emma herself! Back in 1×04, she knows that your life is made up of the choices you make no one is pulling the strings but you. I want the author to be like are you kidding me? I’m just record-keeper you make your own choices.

The Good:

Regina: She’s seriously annoyed me this season you kow this but I loved the scene with Rumple. As critical as I am of her character, I can admit something she has changed. She still has a loooong way to go but there has actually been progress. I was actually proud of her again this episode in regards to the OQ mess.. I LOVED that she saw through Rumple she knew he hadn’t actually changed. She did the right thing and it was great.

Queens of Darkness: Yes this is both good and bad, I didn’t like how it was handled but damn I loved the women. Cruella sassing Rumple was just glorious

“Cruella I thought I caught a whif of desperation and gin”

“Do you want me to get you a stool so you can look me in the eye when you threaten me?”

Really excited for them to come and see what kind of havok they will cause. Maleficent makes me really happy for all the possibilities (plus I’ve got this theory that we will get a CS TLK in 4B and it will be bc of a sleeping curse, Maleficent is the original owner etc if you want to read it I’ll send you guys the link =)


Belle: My only problem was that they introduced a complete deux ex machina to have her find out (and it was to introduce the trio) when there were so many more logicals ways for her to find out.

Loved the scene between Henry and Belle, we need more of them together. They have such a wonderful relationship and I loved Belle’s reaction to being called grandma.

Oh if suitcases were a TARDIS our lives would be so much easier.

Belle I am so so soooo proud of you!!! I really hope they don’t retcon this. This entire speech was everything I ever wanted for Belle, because it’s Belle realizing she’s been wrong all this time. That no matter what happens he will always choose power over her. She woke up the wool has been pulled from her eyes.

From my friend’s review:

It’s so unfortunate that a woman who’s so deserving of love and gives so much needs to be betrayed in such an awful way. It’s so unfortunate that Rumple chose power over Belle. And for one to feel they aren’t enough is the most tragic thing in our world. Emilie De Ravin broke us in that scene — we’ve never been so moved by a performance of hers before, and that very scene at the town line was De Ravin at her strongest. She brought so much heart and vulnerability into a scene that truly required a great amount of emotions. This is a scene we presume was anticipated by all — in order for Rumple and Belle’s relationship to be a healthy one, the entire truth had to be exposed. Rumple needs to choose love over power. Rumple needs to choose Belle over all other things as she’s the most precious person in his life. How heartbreaking was Belle’s breakdown as she says “I just wanted you”? It’s what moved us the most because the very promise he made to Baelfire was the same promise he was attempting to make Belle, and at the end of the day, when it comes to Rumple and most villains, it’s not about what they say, it’s about what they do. As difficult as it was for Belle, she made the right decision tonight. For the first time in forever, she chose herself. She chose to live.

The most important part of the entire scene:

“I lost myself trying to help you find yourself” You guys know I’m big on self-worth. And this is so big for my precious Belle. Again something I’ve sort of experienced (not in the length Belle has but snippets) when you keep trying to help someone and continue to put their needs above yours you start loosing little parts of yourself here and there until you’re not quite sure who you are. It’s one of the things people complained about Belle, that she didn’t have much to do not regarding Rumple.

This is Belle realizing all this and being like no this is not okay I have to put myself first, because you never will.

Colin/Killian Jones:

Can we talk about Colin? Colin Colin COLIN! If anyone ever says he’s a bad actor I’m pointing them towards this scene.

Even his hand movements were rhythmically like Rumple’s. The kicker is that Rumple is trying to sound like Hook and almost succeeds. He uses Killian’s words like alas and love but he can’t stop himself from talking in his natural rhythm. It’s a slighly slower and calmer rhythm (You can tell it’s scripted by Rumple. He pauses between words because he thinks his words are more important, There is a balanced pattern of whether the ends of his words go up or down. So Colin is speaking like Hook speaking like Rumple speaking like Hook.. It’s subtle and so there and that’s what makes it sooo good to watch. The eyes, let’s talk about the eyes in this scene. No one can do eyes like Colin seriously.

His eyes man, you can see that the lights are on but no one is home, except for the moment when Hook breaks through the dark magic to grab Emma. He’s fighting for control, actually fighting, which is more than many other characters have done. His eyes flicker to life.

Same friend’s review, she explains it in another way

First and foremost, O’Donoghue playing Killian under Rumple’s command was genius — the mannerisms were on point. It takes a lot of skill to play an already established distinct character as another character and manage to bring out the right amount of emotions. O’Donoghue imitates some of Carlyle’s most subtly brilliant tactics in the scene, and if you look out for it, there honestly aren’t enough words to describe the brilliance that’s being delivered. We can’t tell what was greater, O’Donoghue’s portrayal of a Rumple-like Killian, or Killian wanting and trying to fight through Rumple’s control by holding on to Emma. O’Donoghue’s aptitudes are immeasurable.

and one final note on Killian Jones

Killian smiling at Emma moments after getting hold of his heart. You can tell everything is still sinking in. Not moments ago he thought he would never get to see her face again, feel her lips again, touch her hair again. Now it’s all over. He’s going to live. He’s going to be with her and continue to make her smile and hold her when she needs him most. And be held by her when he needs her most. I cry.


I’m going to miss them so much, Kristoff don’t leave me, Anna don’t leave me. Frozen Swan don’t leave me (I can’t believe they keep forcing the SQ toxic friendship when we’ve got the example of a healthy wonderful friendship in frozen swan.) I know it was time for them to go but I’m going to miss them so much, and I still can’t believe we never got a Killian/Charming/Kristoff scene..

We did see Charming he had 1 line in the entire episode “Rumplestilskin” that was it.

I loved the chocolate scene but I feel like that scene was surplus? We could have gotten it as a deleted scene? I think we should have gotten a CS scene where they actually had a meaninful conversation and it would have been perfect (it didn’t even have to be a long scene)

Captain Swan:

You know my feelings over this but I did like the tiny scene we got. Those two idiots are so in love with each other you can see it in their eyes and it’s beautiful. Because Killian is so happy to have her back, he didn’t think he would ever have her back in his arms and now she’s there and he’s never letting go. Also we got Emma holding his shiny completely red heart in her hands and that was gorgeous.

I am actually excited for 4B even if it doesn’t exactly seem that way hehehe, hope you guys have a lovely christmas (or other holiday) and a wonderful new year,

Love, Maii


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