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3X14 The Tower – Main Show – Who is Zelena’s Daddy? Who is the Tin Man and Scarecrow? We’re spinning out control!



Podcast episode 212

Shownotes can be found at:

Episode Name: The Tower



Once Upon a Time in Wonderland is canceled

The Once Upon a Time finale episode title is revealed “There’s no place like home”

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Amanda from our Facebook page:

 I just listened to the podcast, which was pretty good as always and I have some thoughts specially regarding to Hook. In these last 3 eps I can see lots of parallels between Hook and Han Solo regarding to their relationships as well as personalities. Both are very confident , adventures, they love a challenge and their vessels. Han had a hard time thinking that Leia had strong love feeling ( he didn’t know Luke was her brother until their last scene) for Luke and so does Hook. Hook still thinks Emma has strong feelings for Neal and maybe Walsh and it hurts him, so he builds his walls up being sarcastic and with the terrible jokes, it’s his way to protect himself ( as Han did ). so when Emma supposes that he had a terrific time in EF , he sticks to the idea, which is totally a big fat lie , maybe hr’s been trying to find her ever since he parted ways on the first ep. Remember Han gives his ship away (lends it but… anyway) for a greater good maybe Hook did the same thing but in change of something to find Emma. It would be a nice parallel and iink it would made perfectly sense cuz he said : there was nothing for him there in EF. Regarding to Emma , I think she’s getting more and more comfortable around him , cant wait to see where this all goes…

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That 9 month caption also told us how far along Mary Margret/ Snow is in her pregnancy in present day Storybrooke, (9th month), as well as telling us that the events in The Tower took place in the 3rd month they were there in FTL/EF.


The shaving scene may have had other psychological, foreshadowing meanings, but it simply hit me as a way to get a sample of Rumple’s blood to open his safe in his shop.
Apparently after the “Ashley incident”, Mr.Gold began to lock his safe with a blood curse, for added security. lol…, and Zelena needed his blood to get something magical, I’m assuming, out of that safe.
Could you tell what that was that she took from his safe? It didn’t ring a bell with me.


“A bit demanding, isn’t she?…….., the midwife I mean.” is what Hook said about Snow…


A second look at what Zelena took from Gold’s safe now looks like “Night Root.” The root that grows under white moss at the haunted edge of Sherwood forest. According to Friar Tuck, if this root is digested, it would help one overcome any and all fears and has flecks of crystal in it’s flesh.
Perhaps an ingredient needed in one of Zelena’s potions and doesn’t grow in Storybrooke’s realm.

J – What if we are about to learn that Zelena was cursed back to Storybrooke somehow and that’s why she needs Snow and Charming’s baby?


Another observation from that scene….. THIS Robinhood says he doesn’t dabble in magic unless he has to. The other Robinhood couldn’t stop expressing how much he loved magic (in Rumple’s castle, as he stole a magic wand) and that his bow was enchanted. #justsayin 


I find the last photo in the show notes of Zelena making tea very interesting. Are we looking down at her distorted reflection in the tea, or looking up from the bottom of the tea cup at her. A neat camera angle. Either way, I believe the liquid is reflecting her true appearance. Which would could tie into her telling Rumple about keeping up appearances.


Stray observations & Best quotes
I stuck to one topic in my email but I couldn’t help but point this out.
Snow you know there’s a wicked witch out there who cursed you and this too good to be true woman, who you don’t remember shows up and you immediately trust her?
Emma’s princess dress had Swan feathers on it (and it was so gorgeous)
The doll of the knight was missing from her nursery but the pirate/naval officer is still there. Basically means even if Charming isn’t able to protect her or can’t be there for her, she still has Killian. (Those dolls were there In the pilot and were there again in the tower)

The CS Theme played in the background of their heart to heart
Plus it’s also a bit of reference to princess bride (other than the reference to wizard of oz)
Emma: you’re glad I got my heart broken?
Hook: If it can be broken, that means it still works..
Buttercup: you mock my pain
Westley: life is pain, highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something
I love the scene outside the storm shelter so much because they’ve just had this emotional moment, but Emma isn’t withdrawn too much. She’s smiling. He makes her smile, even if it’s at his expense. And he’s sighing in exasperation because she’s always teasing him but he loves it secretly because any sort of anything from her makes him love her even more. And it’s this incredibly light moment that shows why they work so well together. They may not be emotionally able to admit it to each other yet, but they love being together and working together and this just shows how well they fit together.

Robin got payment in the form of gold tipped arrows

Regina: I think one day you’ll have more family that you’ll know what to do with
Hook: A bit demanding isn’t she… *gets look from Emma* I meant the midwife
Emma: I’d like to see those flying monstrosities get past Granny’s crossbow
Hook: And her lunch special

Email points:


Hi Jeff and Colleen,

I know I am a little late but I listened to your First Thoughts and the Main Show on “Witch Hunt” and you guys mentioned that Zelina got into the crypt by somehow using Regina’s blood. When I saw the episode, I had thought that because they are half sisters, Zelina wouldn’t have to use any sort of magic or trick to get past the blood curse because they are family. I am not sure if I am missing a piece of the puzzle or have something wrong so feel free to correct me.


P.S. I appreciate all of the hard work you guys do for this show. You do an incredible job.




Hello guys! Wasn’t this episode so creepy? Like dude yeesh lower the creep factor (I’m looking at you zelena)  I’m going to use this email to focus on  Zelena’s three (There’s some amazing meta out there about the other topics so I’m just going to pass along the links and focus on one topic (let’s see if I can heheh)

 More on david (by another of my best friend’s diana) http://enchanteddiana.tumblr.com/post/80615105956/the-tower-my-thoughts-on-david-part-1

meta about the cs scenes


Zelena and the original three

We’ve said Rumple could be the wizard and Snow’s kid or Belle could be Dorothy but I think it goes this way…

Charming is the Cowardly Lion – This current episode was all about how he was afraid of being a father. He was afraid of losing his second child because he feels like he messed everything up the first time. And by defeating the demon, he finds that all he needed to do was find the courage within himself.

Hook is the Tin Man – In the scene we saw with Hook and Emma tonight we hear him say, “If a heart is broken, that means it still works.” After all he went through, seeking revenge for a woman he lost 300 years ago, he found Emma. He found love again, learning that even though his heart had been broken, he found something that made him realize he had a heart the entire time.

Rumple is the Scarecrow – Right now, he seems like a crazy man. Zelena is in charge of him and he is unable to escape his apparent psychosis. You might say he is “without his mind.” The new promo shows that he is running, possibly escaping. On a mission to find something that can hold his sanity together, perhaps? Like Belle?

Emma is Dorothy – With her old and new memories colliding, Emma is on a mission to find her way home. The only problem is she does not know what that means – being an orphan in the foster system her entire life, she has never found stability, family, a place of belonging. This season is her journey to finding where her home is (The Charmings, Killian) and learning, like Dorothy did, that she had a home all along.

I admit the first person to bring this theory to life was my best friend Lexi…. I’m going to pass you the links bc it really is a good read and I need more people to read it because she is brilliant (and no this is not me being biased, she just is brilliant)

http://killians-tinkabelle.tumblr.com/post/78566809683/the-wizard-of-oz-and-its-setting-within-storybrooke (part 1) Rumple

http://killians-tinkabelle.tumblr.com/post/78577205833/the-wizard-of-oz-and-the-its-setting-within (part 2) Killian as the tin man

There’s people that say that the tin man could be Emma, or Neal but I firmly believe it’s Killian Jones.. Like stated above Killian Jones is all about heart.

He was introduced to us in a romantic tragedy, where the woman he loved had her heart ripped from her and he went on a mission of revenge for 300 years until he met a reason to let go of revenge, Emma (who incidentally cannot have her heart ripped out)

Even though he literally sucked at being a villain, he’s the only one that ever admitted his mistakes at first try. He firmly believes he has a rotten heart that it’s completely blackened and that the lieutenant jones is completely gone.

He is the character who is completely moved by what his heart tells him (and the only character who’s gotten close to getting his heart ripped more than once but it’s never actually been taken out)

Another important thing is that the three leading men of the show (Charming, Rumple, Hook) are going to be the three who are the lion, the tin man and the scarecrow.

Zelena is not taking the actual objects but objects that symbolize them.

All 3 objects that Zelena will have in her possession to represent her taking brains,courage and heart will be pointy, a deadly weapon and an object that represents who the person has transformed into from the person they once were. A dagger, a hilt with a broken piece of sword and possibly a hook.

The dagger represents Rumple going from town coward to the Dark One.

The sword represents Charming going from shepherd to knight & prince.

The hook represents Killian going from pirate to villain.

Another hint to Killian Jones being the tin man

Hook: If it can be broken, that means it still works..

Wizard of Oz

Tinman: Now I know I have a heart because it’s breaking

Love, Maii



General thoughts from The Tower episode –
When Charming was fighting the physical form of his fear, the fear had an attitude and  voice that reminded me of The Kurgan from Highlander. 
Charming is drinking?  We’ve seen that before with Rumple drinking out of a flask at Charming’s mother’s house in The Shepherd (I think?).
Regina feels the people of Storybrooke is a family to her – very nice.  Plus, Regina appears happy to be at the party welcoming Rapunzel back to her parents.  Nice to see Regina is being included.
Okay, I too came up with this theory before I heard your thoughts from The Tower episode:   Is Zelena collecting Courage (the Lion), Smarts (the Scarecrow), and Heart (the Tin Woodman) to create a spell or potion?   Who would represent brains (Mr. Gold?) and heart (Snow?).  I believe the potion will be used by Zelena to achieve her ultimate goal. 
I believe Zelena’s backstory is:  She will be the Dorothy character, an unhappy daughter/step-daughter of a drunk, poor carnival man – Professor Marvel.  She learns her skills of manipulation from him.  She longs for a better life and somehow ends up in Oz.  She stumbles upon a source of magic (the emerald necklace) and becomes a green, wicked witch.
Thanks again Jeff and Colleen for a great job.  Hope Lady feels better.  I have two dogs that are very special to me, so I understand how you feel.
Silly Thoughts –
If you notice on the right side at the base of the tower (that held Rapunzel) there appears to be a structure that could have had a doorway. Why didn’t Charming look for a door before climbing the wall?  What if Rapunzel tells Charming (once he gets to the top) that he should have taken the stairs?
Will we get to see Zelena ride her bike (like Miss Gulch?).
I’m surprised the writers have not had the characters in the Enchanted Forest remark about missing some of the luxuries they enjoyed back in Storybrooke, like a hot shower, cell phones, Granny’s burgers, or a hot cup of coffee?  Especially coffee!


Chuck Part 2

Okay, revision, Snow and Charming’s baby will by a symbol of heart.  For brains, it may turn out to be something representing knowledge, possibly the book Snow gave Henry that had everyone’s stories?


Dan from Boston

Hey guys!  Glad to hear you liked my comments!  Well, there’s more where that came from “dearies”!!  And here we. . . . GO!

(1) Yeah Jeff, I also saw the Empire nod when David took off the hood.  But the figure also looked like the Emperor a la Revenge of the Sith too.  Plus, David choking David was Darth Vader straight out of the first scene in A New Hope!!

(2)  Lord of the Rings reference, broken sword to defeat the foe, aka the one that cut off Sauron’s  ring finger in “Fellowship”.

Humor me, I also saw a few Batman/Dark Knight nods here. . . . 

(3) Zelena referring to her father as a “drunkard, and worse (a fiend?)”, Heath Ledger’s Joker.

(4)  David, scaling the tower reminds me of the 60’s Batman show w/Adam West, using the “Bat-grappling hooks”.

(5)  BTW, Did Zelena quip to Regina in, “Witch Hunt”, “Why so . . . serious???”; not sure, I’ll have to re-watch that one.

(6)  Zelena w/dark dagger, giving Rumple a shave, looking a bit like Helene Bonham Carter in “Sweeney Todd”, don’t you think?   As an aside, it must have taken multiple takes to get that scene in, shaving without cream, with a PLASTIC DAGGER!?!   “It’s only a model!. . .. SHHHHH!!!”

ANYWAY. . . .(7)  Also, with the shaving scene, if they are in fact father and daughter, then a line from Ferris Bueller’s Day Off came to mind while watching this, “Hmmmm, so THAT’S how it is in their family!?!”  😉

PONDER ME THIS!!  (Sorry. .. . just HAD to say it. .. . . . ):

What if Zelena is taking such an interest in the Charming’s expectant baby is because, . . . .wait for it. . . . (or, “Stay on target. . . .”), the baby is, in fact, Zelena herself!!  A “Back to the Future time paradox if you will,  “GREAT SCOTT Grumpy!!”

Closing on a serious note, if you don’t mind.  PLEASE send your thoughts and prayers out to the families and friends of two Boston firefighters, who earlier this week lost their lives while doing what they do best, saving others.  (Getting religious for a second. . . ) .  “Eternal rest, grant unto them, O Lord, and let the perpetual light shine around them.  And may the souls of the faithful departed, through the loving mercy of God, rest in peace.    Amen. 

Thank you for that guys, just needed to be said.

Dan, Boston 



Hello Jeff and Colleen, it’s good to hear that there were no complications with Lady going to the vet this past week.
Now, unto the things I learned this week on the episode, The Tower. 

#1. What drew Emma to Walsh was a 
       proper vanity set.
#2. Always appreciate your jailor.
#3. Weaponry can be used as 
          shaving tools.
#4. David is a berry connoisseur.
#5. You never know what secrets 
          you’ll find in someone else’s 
#6. Regina’s daycare service is 
          open for business.
#7. Flying monkeys + Granny’s 
         cross bow = target practice.
#8. Never hold a woman’s hand 
         during pregnancy, unless you 
         have 30 years to recover. 
#9. While being choked, David does a 
         great Batman impression.
#10. Killian uses his hook like an 
Everything in this episode was great except for Rapunzel. She was just a woman with long hair that served no purpose. There wasn’t even a real witch, she put herself in the tower.  I thought she could have been so much more but it seems like they just turned her into a throwaway character. I see her taking the same route as Ashley, Kathryn or Ariel.
Or maybe even worse, be subject to just one episode like Gaston, Hansel and Gretel, Nova or Sir Lancelot. You could have removed her part in this episode entirely and it wouldn’t even have made a difference. So, I’m kind of disappointed in her first appearance, hopefully they prove me wrong and this won’t be the last time we see her. 
While Zelina is talking with Snow she says “He caught you in a net?” I believe this may be a reference to Lost. In episode 22 of season 2, Jack tells Sawyer how him and Kate were caught in a net. Sawyer mistakenly takes this to mean that they slept with each other. Later in the episode, Sawyer uses this same term to tell Jack that he slept with Ana-Lucia by saying, “we got caught in a net!”. 
Regina had a smile on her face when it was revealed that Rumpelstiltskin was alive. Is the real fun about to begin?


While Zelena talked with Rumpelstiltskin she had her emerald ring on.


And while with David and Snow it looks she was wearing some type of green collar brooch. I can only assume it was made of an emerald as well.


So far, every scene has her wearing some type of emerald. 

“Let’s send that witch back to Oz” – David



like that Zelena is using the characters there instead of bring in the scarecrow tin man cowardly lion now that she has a symbol of Charming courage I think Rumple is the brain and Nealfire is the heart and she going through the family line I think Emma is going to be Dorothy in this story because Emma never really had a home and I think Emma going to realize Storybrooke is her home I like the Rapunzel story and I don’t think it’s done my theory is we haven’t seen the last of Walsh what if Walsh is Rider Flynn and he was a thief and he stole from Zelena and she caught him and to spare his life he did her bidding by sending to him New York to keep Emma there I have question do you think it been better if we saw what her and Henry life was like in New York minus Hook and she got a case in any part of Maine and her and Henry went to Maine and stumble upon Storybrook like it was fate since they talk about fate and destiny and as they enter storybrook their memories start to come back to them like in the mid finale when they drove over the town line you saw their memories changing I know they probably want to show us that Hook will always comeback for Emma because Neilfire didn’t or because they are setting up that Hook has agenda look forward to listening



Hi guys my name is Alexandra.  This is my first time writing in but I have been listening to the show since the start of season 2.  I’m a huge Rumple fan and I was too excited for words when I saw he was back.  I loved seeing the crazy Rumple like you guys and I almost hope that the actually is a little crazy so it can give him some more character development, maybe with a caring Belle?  I did have to mention this because of the new bit with Rumple “spinning,” Ok that’s not how you spin.  The raw material goes from your hand onto the bobbin. You don’t pull it out like that.  I’m a spinner myself.  I live on a small farm in New Hampshire with a flock of sheep.  I spin while watching the show and I spin while listening to your podcast.  A huge pet peeve of mine is that they never bothered to teach Robert Carlyle how to spin at all.  Every single time a spinning wheel is on the show something is wrong.  The most obvious instance is with his great wheel where the whole point of having a huge wheel like that is the mechanical advantage but the drive band went around the hub of the wheel making the whole thing pointless.  I digress, spinning is just important to me and to have a character that I LOVE who also loves spinning and then have him doing it obviously wrong all the time is a bummer.
Anyway I love your show.  Keep up the good work.

P.S. Alexandra again it’s lambing season!  I thought I’d send you these cute pics, and yes I am a Irish red head ya ginger hater 😉

alexandrasheepphoto 4



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