3X05 Good Form – Main Show – Not Jack, but Wendy?, King Who?, Cocoon and Star Wars connections.

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Instead of Jack, is it Wendy in the Box? Maybe a True Love of Someone on the island?
Who is the King?
Is the Island removing Hook’s Pirate side?
Is Regina (and the group) learning to play well with each other, and how ill they play out for Pan?
Never judge a book by it’s cover, even if its a Pirate, an Evil Queen, etc, etc.
Neverland is an island of permission, even Regina knows this.
Cocoon and (More) Star Wars connections.
Don’t fall under a sleeping curse, stay awake for this.

Ahoy Mateys! This is Jeff and Colleen Roney from the deck.

Episode Name: Good Form

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Nicole

Since time stands still essentially on neverland, I wonder how much time will have actually passed back in storybrooke. Will it be months / years later? Also what is Henry drinking while there ? We know the others have rum….

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Cindy

I wonder if Henry’s mirror will still work, since it’s broken. It did land face up, so maybe Regina will see Neal in the cage, or maybe she will hear Pan talking to Henry.

So far, Peter has shown no interest in Regina, David or Mary Margaret, which raises my suspicions. He’s only spoken to Rumple, Bae, Henry, Hook and Emma. I’m not convinced that Peters main target is Henry, or if he’s using Henry as bait to lure someone else. He’s extremely interested in Emma. Personally, I think Emma could be the truest believer, and Henry is the ‘heart” of the truest believer. The wooden cage/ box has taken the viewers back to the most frustrating question of all. First it was “what’s in the box?”. But now it’s “who’s in the box?”. (Those writers are truly evil).

As for Neal, as a boy, there was something that set him apart from the other lost boys. They seemed to have followed Peter willingly, and stayed willingly. But Bae did not choose to follow Peter or stay willingly, because he left. Whether he escaped, or was let go by Peter is still in question, but clearly, Bae wanted to leave. (How he left, and where he went are still in question) When Peter said to lock Neal up with the other one, my first thought was that there is another person, besides Bae who’s mind Peter could not control, who wanted to leave Neverland The other child I’ve seen who chose to go home, and who Peter let leave, is Wendy. Can’t control Neal’s mind, then lock him in a cage. Can’t control Wendy, lock her in a cage. I think it will be another few weeks until we see who’s in that cage.

The saying you can’t leave Neverland is clearly untrue. Multiple people have left. Neal left Neverland. So did Rumple. Wendy left. Hook left. Smee left. Liam left. The whole Jolly Rodger crew left Neverland. Regarding Hook, I think he might decide to work with Peter, but only to get closer to Neal,Bae. I think hook truly did love Bae, and would have been good to him. I think as his last gesture of love for Milah, and as his last attempt at redemption, Hook will choose to help free both Neal and Henry. Somehow he will look like a villan, or he might even die trying, but if it’s Neverland and Peter Pan, in this story, Captain Hook will save the day. It’s Neverland, come on, in a twisted tale, Captain Hook is obviously the hero, right?

Emma has lost her gift of knowing when people are lying to her. She didn’t detect that David lied about Hook risking his life, saving him from an ambush of lost boys. She questioned Hook about it, but he avoided the answer and went for the kiss instead.

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Amanda

I had the craziest idea .. What if the person in the cage is Rumple’s dad ??? He could be there all this time … I also thought the reference to Princess Bride very sweety especially coming from Hook : As u wish!!! I think if he tells Emma that Neal is alive he can have chances with her ! I dont think she will forgive Neal so easily he really harmed her in many ways!!! And just one more thing : where does all that rum comes from??, its endless lol

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Aubrey

I wonder why shadows only come out at night..at least we have only seen them at night, usually you see your shadow during the day with the sun high, so why in neverland have we seen them later?

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Genevieve

Thank you for using “Mola Ram” to describe Regina taking out that kid’s heart. Loved it!

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Danielle

I am listening to your Season 3 Episode 1, you mentioned Wendy and I remembered Tamara and Greg mentioned the home office, well what if this Home office was started by Wendy. You know like in Doctor Who when Queen Victoria Torchwood, what if Wendy started the home office and the home office is Once’s version of Torchwood, instead of protecting the world from bad aliens, its magic. Wendy must of been upset that Bae never came back to her, so her anger caused her to want to rid the world of magic. What do you think?

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Danielle

Also it could of been one of her brothers to. Who else knows about Neverland and Magic that is in the real world? Wendy and her brothers are the obvious suspects to who the Home office is, after they passed away surely someone took over for them. I hope they explore it further, I am willing to bet it started with Wendy.

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Cindy

There’s got to be more to the Tamara/Greg story than they’ve told us so far. There’s been no explanation as to how Tamara ever got her orders. Who gave them to her, and how? That walkie talkie thing was bogus. Maybe you’re right and there’s more Wendy story coming. But she’s dead by now.

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Cindy

Tink is a collector. We saw her with Tamara’s watch. We also know that Ariel, in the movies, is a collector of human things. Hopefully one of them has found the Pegasus sextant that will lead them home. I can’t recall if Hook still has it or not. And also, I’m confused. Is the Jolly Rodger still there? Or did it break apart off shore.

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Cindy

So, we have seen Peter in Wonderland go face to face with Rumplestiltzkin, threatening him, instilling fear in him. We saw him last week, face to face with Hook, threatening him, installing fear in Hook. We’ve seen him with Emma, threatening her as well. But we haven’t seen what will happen if he tries to threaten Regina. I’m hoping we see him in a face to face with Regina. For two seasons we’ve been rooting for an underdog to defeat Regina. I’m hoping tonight that we get a face off between Regina and Peter. And if we do, who will leave the other fearful. Who would dominate that conversation?

Twitter: @ouatpodcast

@ktodd1116

@ouatpodcast #firstthoughts what’s up with the difference in light in Neverland in the Jones’s era and present day? @AdamHorowitzLA

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@maiqu20

@ouatpodcast @captainswan4eva maybe it’s King George’s ancestor? Like the line was filled with corrupt kings?

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@captainswan4eva

@ouatpodcast Here’s a dumb question? Was Liam and Killian from the real world origionally hundreds of years ago or were they from the

@ouatpodcast the fairytale world as well, I was thinking it would of been King George,

@ouatpodcast @AdamHorowitzLA Could Peter be a demon with the face of a boy? This what a friend an I started to wonder

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Email points:

From Tiffany

I started listening to you because I use to listen to LOST pod casts and was looking for a pod cast on my new favorite show! I was drawn to you because I had read that you were both lost fans as well and I was looking for a pod cast that compared the two shows! 
I saw Adam and Eddie at D23 tithe year OUAT was introduced and the shared they would have many lost references!!! And I so wanted a pod cast who would point those out to me as I do not always catch them! And you were the podcast I chose and I have not looked further. I saw this because I want you to know that some of us LOVE when you talk about lost and frankly is the reason I am here so please continue and no need to appologize to those who do not. It’s is there lost and you are who who you are! 
That said I did want to welcome you back! Missed you over the summer! It was great to see Colleen at D23.  (By the way Coleen since I did share with you, and I wanted to let you know that my last test showed me as cancer free! I do have a chance of reaccurance in the 1st 3-5 years so will be checked often! )
Anyway, I LOVE your new format. It is very familiar to a format to a Lost pod cast in which you divide the pod cast into sections with a theme!! 
The only thing they had you do not have was at the very end they are the forward cabin (it was a plane theme) they had a spoiler section.  If you choose to do that you could have a “walk the plank” section.  It was always at the end so those who did not want to listen could shut off the pod cast. I never listened but I a saved it to listen later because much of it was talk about people who had seen scenes take place! Since they were in Hawaii! 
Oh the only thing and it’s a funny story so no need to change! But I listen to your pod cast in the car and every time the sound effect for the listener feed back come on and it scares the hell out of me!!!LOL
Okay about the episode!! 
Just a little idea: what if….. 
Peter Pan and Rumple are brothers!
Peter keeps priding rumple about his father and something keeps telling me they are brothers. And for some reason rumple’s father went with Peter instead of rumple!
One last thing before I go!
What the chance of another Disney meet up???
Would love to meet up again with people!! 
(I loved hearing about you going to the Mickey Halloween party! )
Do you know because of the last meet up I started listening to two new pods one is no longer as it was the fringe show. but I still listen to the Disgeek podcast!!
Okay bye until next time!
This girl shall fly away with Tink. Okay walk as she can no longer fly! 
( I really like the new characters of tink and peter this year!)
Bye!
Tiffany

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From Holly

Hey Jeff and Colleen,

WOW! What another fantastic episode of Once Upon a Time. Loved the back story on Hook and that he knew of a cure for David. All I can say is it’s going to be a very interesting conversation between David and Snow when he has to tell her he can’t leave Neverland. Unless there’ll be some way that Pan will okay it or Rumple can come up with something to allow David to leave. The scene with Henry, Snow, Emma and Regina was great. I loved how Emma used Operation Save Cobra to let Henry know that it was really them and not a trick by Pan. I’m really wondering now that if at the end of Nasty Habit if Henry wasn’t playing Pan to keep himself safe. Also the conversation that David had with Hook after he was given the potion was interesting. When Hook said he wasn’t doing it for himself that he was doing it for someone else the first person that came to my mind wasn’t Emma but Snow. Hook could tell from the look on Snow’s face how much she loved him and I think he knew how much it would destroy her if he did die. I’ll wrap it up here. Looking forward to hearing everyone’s thoughts on this episode.

Holly

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From Aleana

I love this episode love getting the backstory of Hook love Charming being a dad and telling Hook to back off Emma love Emma Snow Regina team love Emma holding Snow back when Regina took out the boy heart love Regina line when Charming and Snow was kissing What I give for another sleeping curse My theory is what if the person in the box is a adult Wendy what if she was behind the home office and working with Peter Pan but discover that Peter Pan didn’t want to destroy magic but to get Henry and she turn on Peter Pan and he decide to keep Wendy I think that be great because I really don’t like love triange and I don’t mind a quad between Emma/Nealfire/Wendy/Hook Love Henry like that he didn’t believe that his family was there at first just hope he doesn’t give it away that he knows his family is coming for him love the parallel between Henry and Snow when Henry cut that lost boy in the face same way Snow cut Regina in the face love that Charming is save I hope that there a way for him to leave Neverland without dying
Look forward to listening to the podcast

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No name given

I was listening to the podcast and heard you talk of the wild boar on the island and the fact that they also hunted boar in ‘lost’.  (I never saw lost, so I will take your word for it).  I do not find it strange that they would have the wild boar in an island setting.  when there was an island in an area with heavy ship traffic, it was not unusual for sailors to let loose a few pigs on the island.  They are pretty self sufficient and would multiply rather quickly.  That way, there would always be a supply of food when the ship passed that island again.  they could haul more cargo and less food for the journey if they had places where they knew they could stop and resupply their food stores along the way.  This was also done more on smaller islands than on large bodies of land.  that way the sailors didn’t have to hunt as long to get a pig or two for fresh meat. 
 
Now on to the show.  I am assuming that all of the lost boys have been nicked with the dream shade plant and drank the water from the fall.  this way they can never leave neverland.  however, I missed what the exact wording was that pan used.  would it be possible for them to leave neverland as long as they always carried some soil from neverland with them?  That way they always have a part of the island with them.  Just a thought.

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From Gienne (Jeenee)

   Hi Jeff and Colleen,
   Like you Jeff, I am a total Star Wars (since 1977) and Joseph Campbell geek. I too can’t help but see many little nods in OUAT to Star Wars [love the Vader choke hold Regina learned from him 😉 ]     Anyways, after this last episode and listening to your First Thoughts podcast, I can’t help but think that you totally missed one Star Wars nod. The relationship of CaptainSwan as compared to Princess Leia &Han Solo (PrincessSolo) – my original ship. 😉 
Here are my reasons:
   *Han and Hook: A smuggler and pirate who are Captains of their own iconic ships with more than questionable pasts. (Han was no angel when you first met him.) Also they are very self serving, looking out for themselves. The anti-heros.
   *Leia and Emma: Both princesses are strong, independent women who know how to take care of themselves and business. They also have no problems dressing the guys down for being arrogant and selfish.
   *Han and Hook: Mercilessly flirted with their princesses first just to get under their skin but somewhere along the way it turned into something more serious for themselves.
   *Leia and Emma: Shut them down at every turn until after finally giving in for a significant kiss, only to run away to be alone with their thoughts.
   *Han and Hook: Both making a concious decision on starting to do the right thing so that they might be worthy of their princesses. and even though we know Han made a personal sacrifice to save Leia (carbonite), for all we know, Hook yet might surprise us and do something equivalent for Emma.
    Now as you can probably tell, I do lean heavily toward CaptainSwan. Mainly because I see all these similarities and can’t help but think that Adam and Eddie have been building Emma and Hook’s relationship to mirror Han and Leia’s (yes, wishful thinking, I know). But I do believe that just might possibly be their intention and they will still have more in store for these two. After all, they have slowly built the realtionship up to this point for the past 2 seasons. That and Hook saying those heart melting words “As you wish.” (Princess Bride geek too) and seeing Emma smiling to herself may be a hint too that there will be more. 
    Yet, I am a realist and know that more than likely Emma and Neil are the end game. But now that they have rung this particular bell, I hope they don’t try to un-ring it by doing some contrived plotline. Honestly, it would be a diservice to the charector of Hook (who is so obviously on his own Hero’s Journey) to turn him all evil again just to push SwanThief on everyone. I would like to see him struggle with the conundrum he is now in, knowing that he needs to do the right thing by Emma but at the sacrifice of his own happiness. Like more in the vein of Tale of Two Cities. That would be a great dramatic storyline and even though he may not ultimatly get the girl, it will lead to his ultimate redemption. You know, Hook really could use a Wookie friend right now. 😉
Thanks for your time and till then, CaptainSwan and PrincessSolo all the way! 🙂
Giennie (Jeenee) Delaney

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No name given

One thing I couldn’t help but think on and I don’t remember you guys discussing it is the romantic  parallel between Rumple and Neal that is evolving here.  Hook seems to have seduced both their women.  Now we know it’s not quite the same because Emma thinks that Neal is dead but I still think it’s interesting.  I wonder if Rumple might feel empathy for Neal if he saw Emma with Hook.  Anyway that’s all I wanted to say.  I love your podcast.  Keep up the good work

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From Maii

Hello guys! It’s an amazing podcast as always just listened to the first thoughts on Good Form ( I admit haven’t been able to listen to quite a common fairy or nasty habits bc of RL issues but I’ll do it after this email).. What a fantastic episode.. I think it’s been one of the best yet, and I’m talking in all OUAT eps so far not just season 3. Colin just kicked it out of the park, that last scene gave me chills like no other.. And as a Killian Jones fan I’m really glad to have proof that he was a good man before being a pirate, because everyone claimed that he was a bad guy bc he was a pirate but he actually became a pirate to fight a corrupt king.. ( becoming an outlaw to fight a corrupt monarch.. Sound familiar?) 
I’m going to do something different this time bc I love this episode so much and there are so many good metas out there already that I’m just going to pass it on to you guys for you to read bc there’s no way I could express myself as well as they do. Normally I try to be as unbiased as I can but I found it impossible for this ep.. 
-this is from my friend Hilary who was asked about Parallels between Tallahassee and Good Form –
IN THE PAST
• Killian and Emma are wide-eyed, naive, somewhat wet-behind-the-ears. We are introduced to someone in their lives who we quickly realize is important. Liam for Killian, Neal for Emma. Both of these relationships are close and loving.
• Killian is traveling around in a ship, Emma is traveling around in a Bug. Later revealed, of course, that these are still their respective vehicles today.
• In both cases, the new person (Liam/Neal) gives the other (Killian/Emma) a token of their relationship. Liam gives Killian a sextant with the Jones family emblem, Neal gives Emma a swan keychain. At the end of the episode, post-losing that person, the memento is kept to remind Killian/Emma to NOT be who they were before (a rule-abiding Navy sailor who thinks the best about the world/a girl who trusts people and thinks the best about the world).
• Both Killian and Emma, faced with losing the person they love, unhesitatingly “break the rules” to keep them. Killian gives Liam the magic water without asking about the consequences, Emma steals the watches from the train station. In both cases, this backfires horrifically. Liam dies anyway, Emma is nabbed and sent to jail.
• Emma says, “Where, Neverland?” when Neal asks her about a home. Liam and Killian actually GO to Neverland, where Killian LOSES his home (Liam being his home, the last thing he has left). The chance for having that is broken on both sides.
• As a result, both Killian and Emma become completely different people, walls-up, angry, and alone.
IN THE PRESENT
• At the start, Killian is talking to Emma, trying to bond with her. Emma shuts it down, as she did at the beginning of Tallahassee when they were climbing the beanstalk together and he was chattering away (“Most men would take your silence as off-putting, but I love a challenge.”)
• The reminder that Killian is a pirate and therefore seen as untrustworthy and unvalued (“Oh, the pirate thing” in Tallahassee, followed by David’s “you’re just a pirate” in Good Form)
• In both episodes, Emma is working as hard as she can to get back to Henry. In both episodes, Hook is right alongside her working for the same thing. In Tallahassee, it was selfish, for his revenge, to get to Storybrooke and kill Gold. In Good Form, it’s completely for Emma, and David calls him on this.
• In both episodes, Hook goes on a journey with a member of the Charming family. In Tallahassee, with Emma, where they realize they’re both orphans. In Good Form, with David, where they realize they’ve both lost their brothers. In both cases, about the fact that Hook doesn’t HAVE a family and as we’ve seen, very much wants one.
• The biggie: Charming threatens Hook to stay away from Emma by revealing that he knows a damaging piece of information about him (that he heard him talking with Pan and thinks he took the deal). Hello, August threatens Neal to stay away from Emma by revealing that he knows a dangerous piece of information about him (his real name). Killian absolutely does not.
• This is after turning down Pan’s deal and declining the easy way of having Emma at the expense of her happiness and her relationship with Henry. Multiple times this episode, we saw Killian refusing the easy way out, which was what Neal jumped on after 10 minutes with August. He will NOT leave Neverland with Emma, despite everything that Neverland is to him, if it means making her be less than whole.
• At the end. Oh yes. Tallahassee: “That’s a plausible excuse for grabbing me, but next time don’t stand on ceremony.” Good Form: Emma does not stand on ceremony, grabs Killian, and smooches the living bejesus out of him. Then as she did in Tallahassee, she walks away from him. The first time, it was because she had just chained him to the wall. The second time, it was because she didn’t want anyone to know that they were just kissing.
• At the end of Tallahassee, Emma learns about Henry (or rather the fact that she’s pregnant with Henry) and it screws everything up. At the end of Good Form, Killian learns about Neal and it screws everything up.
Here’s another post of hers: http://lady-silverblood.tumblr.com/post/65315590314/can-you-please-make-a-meta-on-which-were-the-points

This is from my friend sarah who did an analysis of the episode : http://onceuponamirror.tumblr.com/post/65307905226/3×05-analysis-aka-once-upon-the-happiest-meta-of-my

Some of my own thoughts
Morally Grey Emma – I absolutely adored this! Because yes Emma is a Charming, she’s a hero, a good person but she also grew up in our land not only that she was a thief.. So she’s always been morally grey.. In the first ep she says “I’m a mother” and we saw that tonight.. She’ll do anything to get her son back no matter how ruthless it might seem.. Plus I love her and Regina working together.. 
Captain Charming – I thought these were some of the best scenes.. Yes we have overprotective Charming but at the end of the episode you see Charming start to trust Killian.. Killian saved Charming for Emma because he doesn’t want her to loose her father but I think that more than that it’s that he looks up to Charming in a way.. Charming is everything Liam was and as we saw Liam was Killian’s world, his hero was his brother and he sees the same values/attitudes in Charming.  Yes he tells Charming he did it for Emma but he wasn’t actually expecting any gratitude (look closely at Colin’s face during the toast Charming makes, he is shocked and then you see a tiny smile get on his face) .. I do think it’s going to backfire on them that the women didn’t know Charming was dying of dreamshade
Jones Brothers – they killed me this episode, they weren’t just close they were each other’s world.. I have the theory that Liam wasn’t just his brother I think he was also Killian’s father figure.. Killian wanted to be like him, Liam was his hero and he had to watch him die twice.. I hadn’t thought of the fact that the king might have sent them to their deaths like you guys said.. I mean yeah that part was obvious but maybe the king wanted them out of the way, like I got the feeling that they weren’t just good sailors but they were wonderful at their job.. So maybe he knew getting two morally sound officers out of the way was good for him. 
As You Wish- Killian Jones told Emma Swan “As You Wish” after the kiss.. Christine Boylan (sp?) actually confirmed it was scripted and Colin had said in an earlier interview that his Killian Jones was partly based on Dread Pirate Roberts so I think that’s a pretty big deal considering they are held as one of the greatest love stories of our time. 
The music during the kiss was a bit of a variation to the music we heard in Tallahassee when Emma chained Hook.. It’s also very similar to Snowing’s main theme .. More on that http://neverlandskyrider.tumblr.com/post/65367734765/about-the-music-that-played-during-the-kiss 

I do think Killian is going to tell Emma about Neal.. It’s the thing than Pan doesn’t expect, Pan wants him to keep it to himself so that he can reveal that Hook knew about it causing the group to loose trust in him.. He sees Killian coming back into Hook and he doesn’t want that.. Killian Jones was promoted as a hero during the summer and I think Good Form was where we saw him going against temptation and choosing the hard way, the hero’s journey.. ( ship side note.. I did love the parallel of Pan using Emma as leverage against Hook just like Rumple used Hook as leverage against Emma back in season 2) 

As to who is in the box I’m either it being an older Wendy or Eric (connecting Ariel to the Nevengers).. Adam has confirmed Greg is very much dead..
Keep up the good work! This is my favorite podcast and once again I’m sorry for the length I try to keep it short but it escapes me.. 
Xoxo Maii

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From Giennie (Jeenee)

Hi Jeff and Colleen,
Normally I don’t write twice but I realized that there was one more important comparison that you just have to know. Mainly because it defines who they are.     So here it is…..
*Han & Hook: Both are Captains of their own iconic ships…The Milennium Falcon and the Jolly Roger.
Oh and even though Han was a smuggler, there have been occasions when he was called a (Space) Pirate too. 😉
Thanks for indulging me and my geekiness.
Sincerely Giennie Delaney

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From Deb B

Hi,

I just finished listening to your initial reactions to Good Form.

Here is my speculation of who is in the box. I think it is someone we have not previously seen in Neverland. I think it is going to be Robin Hood.  Last season, I remember how the shadow kept coming back to the Darlings until the shadow was taking a boy to Neverland. What if the shadow came back to Fairytale Land to get a boy and Robin went in place of his son. This would also get Regina and Robin in the same area.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!
Deb B

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From Brad

Hello Jeff and Colleen, here are the things I learned this week from Good Form.

#1. Emma is an expert scribble reader.
#2. Pumbaa’s cousin was used as bait.
#3. Neverland needs a post office.
#4. Hook does not fight invalids.
#5. Drunkenness leads to bad form.
#6. Pegasus has some serious molting issues.
 
#7. Emma is coming to terms with calling Henry “our” son. 
#8. Lost boys hate chocolate.
#9. Apple needs to patent the iCompact.
#10. Snow and Emma would make terrible detectives. 

Hope you enjoy

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From Marilyn

Hello Jeff and Colleen! Permission to come aboard the Oncer Privateer.

Okay, guys, as I have mentioned before, I love my pirates so I was looking forward with great anticipation to the episode with Hook’s backstory and, I have to say, I was not disappointed.

Borrowing a page from the old films like Captain Blood and the Seahawk, they made Hook to be a man of honor who believed in a fair fight. Killian Jones/Hook takes up the life of piracy for noble reasons: not to serve a duplicitous king who caused him to lose his brother and would have used Dreamshade as a chemical weapon to wipe out his opponents. Great backstory! But I do hope that, in future episodes, we see how he lost his way and became the version of the rum-drinking pirate of today. Did it start before losing Mila or after?

But, I have to say that, although he looks pretty good in a naval uniform, I much prefer him as the saucy scoundrel with the sexy banter,  “guy-liner” and that black leather coat! And, speaking of uniforms, now that I have seen those uniforms I am wondering if Rumple’s doll is actually dressed as a naval officer?

Seems as though neither Emma nor Hook could handle that kiss when it came. Loved it when Emma told Hook to go off and gather firewood and  he answered with the line from Princess Bride: “As you wish”.

I think the actor that is playing Pan is doing a marvelous job. Instead of playing it “over-the-top” he is being oh, so subtle and that makes it come across as all-the-more evil, in my opinion.

This is turning into one heck of a season and, as always, I enjoy it even more being able to share it with you and your other podcast fans.
Take care,
Marilyn

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